Terry started a thread on Schulz and de Vienne's book, Separate Identity, which you should read. They've posted a partial, rough draft of their current work here:
http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/
Old Goat
JoinedPosts by Old Goat
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Schulz and de Vienn
by Old Goat interry started a thread on schulz and de vienne's book, separate identity, which you should read.
they've posted a partial, rough draft of their current work here:
http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/.
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A Separate Identity: Organizational Identity Among Readers of Zion’s Watch ... By B. W. Schulz
by Terry inenter:.
https://books.google.com/books.
a separate identity: organizational identity among readers of zion’s watch .
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Old Goat
Russell's religious 'home' from 1870 to 1876 was within Age to Come belief. He read The Restitution and continued to do so long after starting his own paper. When The Object and Manner of Our Lord's Return was published in 1877 he turned to The Restitution and to The Prophetic Times to help circulate it. They were not Adventist publications. Adventists hated The Restitution.
Some point to his association with G. Stetson as proof he took up Adventism. This is shallow research. Stetson wrote about his adoption of Age to Come belief. By the time Russell met him Stetson was writing for The Restitution and for a British journal, The Rainbow. His congregation in Edinboro, PA was a mixture of both. But when they had a church conference in 1875, it was only advertised in The Restitution.
People are easily swayed by what they read on the internet. Above someone cut and pasted the wickipedia article on Barbour. That article was almost entirely written by R. M. de Vienne. Dr. de Vienne will tell you, and does in Separate Identity, that Russell was never an Adventist.
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A Separate Identity: Organizational Identity Among Readers of Zion’s Watch ... By B. W. Schulz
by Terry inenter:.
https://books.google.com/books.
a separate identity: organizational identity among readers of zion’s watch .
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Old Goat
There is no evidence that Russell met Darby. However, Russell mentions Plymouth Brethren and was familiar with their teaching. He was somewhat dismissive.
The roots of Russell's teaching are in Age to Come doctrine. The chart posted in this thread attached that to Millerism. In fact age to come was the standard approach to prophecy in America from the colonial era. It was called Literalism in the UK, and sometimes it was called that in the US. Literalists rejected any "spiritualizing" of Bible prophecy unless warranted by the Bible itself. So they believed in a literal return of the Jews. Adventists rejected that. Literalism was not a denomination, but an approach to exegesis.
Russell's congregationalist pastor wrote a pamphlet on prophecy taking the Literalist approach. Russell was prepared by his Congregationalist and Methodist connections to see prophecy through Literalist / Age-to-Come eyes.
He tells us what he read, sometimes naming the author or their books. Other times we find him paraphrasing the works of contemporaries. So we have a long list of people that influenced him if in nothing else a negative way. None of his doctrines were uniquely Adventist. He rejected Adventism and self-identified as a millinarian. Literalists were as interested in last-times prophecy as were the Adventists. They preceded Millerism by centuries.
Long before Miller even thought about prophecy, Literalist journals and books flooded the UK, Europe, and America. For instance The Christian Observer, an Anglican journal, was republished word for word in the United States. It frequently dealt with prophetic themes always in Literalist ways. J. Aquila Brown, an English silversmith turned prophetic expositor, wrote at least one article for it in 1810. During the Millerite misadventure The Literalist was published in Philadelphia. It reprinted works by major English and Scottish writers on prophecy.
Barbour had been an Adventist. Russell suspected he was one. but found their beliefs similar. Barbour wrote back saying he had been one, but was one no longer. People identify Barbour with the Advent Christian Church. He wasn't an Advent Christian. His doctrine, while still an Adventist, was colored by the Life and Advent Union.
The Life and Advent Union is usually identified with Adventism. In point of fact G. Storrs left Millerite Adventism in 1844. While many LAU adherents remained Adventist, a significant portion of them rejected Millerite doctrine and were united with them only on the basis of a shared view of the resurrection. When Russell met Storrs, Storrs was preaching Age to Come doctrine and vilified in the Adventist press.
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A Separate Identity: Organizational Identity Among Readers of Zion’s Watch ... By B. W. Schulz
by Terry inenter:.
https://books.google.com/books.
a separate identity: organizational identity among readers of zion’s watch .
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Old Goat
By the time Russell met Barbour, Barbour was no longer an Adventist. Russell says this. Barbour switched to Mark Allen's version of One Faith, the Church of the Blessed Hope.
Read chapter four in Separate Identity. Learn something new.
Schulz and de Vienne dissect Russellite doctrine in detail, showing sources and books they read. Russellite doctrine is not Adventist.
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A Separate Identity: Organizational Identity Among Readers of Zion’s Watch ... By B. W. Schulz
by Terry inenter:.
https://books.google.com/books.
a separate identity: organizational identity among readers of zion’s watch .
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Old Goat
Also, according to Schulz and de Vienne, that chart of origins is significantly wrong. They prove it so with contemporary documentation. -
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A Separate Identity: Organizational Identity Among Readers of Zion’s Watch ... By B. W. Schulz
by Terry inenter:.
https://books.google.com/books.
a separate identity: organizational identity among readers of zion’s watch .
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Old Goat
In fact, volume 2 of Separate Identity is in preparation. They post bits of it on their blog. They also posted a request for documents and such for The third book in the series. Having written a few books myself, I can tell you that history books do not spring into being over night, at least the worth while ones don't.
Visit their blog regularly. They some times post rough draft chapters, though only temporarily. I read their blog compulsively.
I should say that I know both authors. I used to work with Mr. Schulz at Conventions, usually in the news service department. And Dr. de Vienne lives across the Columbia River from me. She meets me for coffee about one a month or so and tells me about their current research. If she had been one of my students, I'd brag a bunch, but she wasn't.
Last I heard, they're about half or more done with volume 2 and collecting material for the third book in this series. Book 1 was Nelson Barbour: The Millennium's Forgotten Prophet.
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A Separate Identity: Organizational Identity Among Readers of Zion’s Watch ... By B. W. Schulz
by Terry inenter:.
https://books.google.com/books.
a separate identity: organizational identity among readers of zion’s watch .
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Old Goat
http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/
A fairly large preview of Separate Identity is available at books.google.com
I taught history at a major West Coast university for many years. This is some of the best work I've ever seen, especially about the Watch Tower.
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Brooklyn Eagle scans
by diamondiiz inhttp://www.4shared.com/file/97496947/cd21b343/1909-1916_brooklyn_eagle_news_clippings.html.
thought of putting this in a new topic.. scans on:.
miracle wheat.
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Old Goat
The Brooklyn Eagle is a very unreliable site. What you want is the trial transcript: It's embedded in this book:
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EX J-DUB TRIVIA (TRY it and see how many you can get correctly)
by Terry intrivia quiz for ex-jw's.
1.who was the first president of the watchtower bible and tract society.. 2.when was the watch tower association first formed.
(what year?).
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Old Goat
The original document reads:
Pittsburgh PA, Feb’y 1881
We the undersigned – believing that much good can be accomplished and many people be brought to see the great loving plans of our heavenly Father, by a judicious and thorough use of tracts and reading matter treating on some of the salient points of our belief, as we find it to be gloriously and graciously revealed in our Father’s word, do hereby combine and unite our energies etc. for the purpose of so publishing and distributing “Zion’s Watch Tower” tracts etc.
The Lord willing and aiding us we purpose distributing said tracts etc. in all the large cities (north) of the United States and in the principal ones of Great Britain etc. etc. as the Lord of the harvest shall open the way and reveal his will.
This work will require millions of pages of tracts costing thousands of dollars; it will require thousands of distributors costing other thousands of dollars. (The purpose complying with the words of the Lord “Owe no man any thing” and will contract no debts.) And we the signers of this paper willingly contribute toward this fund the amounts set opposite our names. The money which we contribute is not ours, it belongs to Him whose we are – We gave it when we gave ourselves and our all to him. We now act as God’s “stewards” in distributing of His goods to His praise and glory and for the preaching of the good news to thousands who are in darkness and being (as we once were) led into infidelity and unbelief through the misrepresentations made concerning the character and plan of our loving Father.
Of the sum which we have set opposite our names we “stewards” of the manyfold grace (favors) of God will pay one half in cash and one half on demand after six months to the publisher of “Zion’s Watch Tower” who agrees to keep a strict acc’t of all moneys received and expended; and to make a showing of same to any of the subscribers to the fund whenever desired.
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EX J-DUB TRIVIA (TRY it and see how many you can get correctly)
by Terry intrivia quiz for ex-jw's.
1.who was the first president of the watchtower bible and tract society.. 2.when was the watch tower association first formed.
(what year?).
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Old Goat
1. The first President of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society was J. F. Rutherford. Originally formed as the People's Pulpit Society in 1909, its name was changed in 1939 to Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York. If you mean Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society, Conley is correct. But his primary occupation was steel fabrication.
2. There is no Watchtower Association. There was and is in some countries the International Bible Students Association founded in 1914. Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society was formed in 1881.
3. Joseph Russell and C. T. Russell. The rest of your answer is wrong. They did not "purchase shares." That was a post 1884 development. The organizers pledged money, paid half at signing and half later. Charles Russell committed to $7000.00; Albert Delmont Jones committed to $2000.00; William Henry Conley promised $4000.00; and Joseph L. Russell promised $1000.00. These are the figures on the original document. The online claims are false.
10. The Russell v. Russell transcript does not support claims of an Improper Relationship between Russell and Rose Ball. That comes from sensationalist newspaper articles.